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Discussion about skills


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#1 RO_GM06

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 03:55 PM

Hello,

There have been several reports recently about unbalanced skills or skill abuse.
The purpose of this topic will be to have feedback from the players to decide if modifications have to be done at some point for the War of Emperium.

First, as an aditionnal information to the maintenance patch note:

Dragon Breath is considered as a problem by the majority because of the high frequency spam that can be performed under special circumstances.
We are testing modifications that could be made on it, to reduce this frequency. Our goal is to make this modification as slight as possible, to be significant enough to avoid the spam, but to not disturb the regular RK players.



Then, the reported problem : Feint Bomb

Feint Bomb is supposed to be an exclusive evasion skill for Shadow Chaser, that grants a short duration of invisibility and invincibility.
However, several players have twisted the purpose of this skill by using it through warp to pass through all enemy's traps/defense.
To be clear, using Feint Bomb this way will lead to the account suspension of the player since it's considered as a bug abuse.

Still it doesn't remove the problem, so it's now a possibility to remove it completely from War Of Emperium maps.

I'm waiting for your feedback, from Woe players point of view.

If you want your argument/opinion to be taken into account, please stay courteous in this discussion.


Thank you in advance.

#2 Ectobi

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 04:56 PM

Hello Gms,
I played WoE a long tima as an GX. The last years was pretty hard for GX cause there was no fun because of the DB Spam ,bug abuses, the updates like 175 and the siege set. For me it would be a good decission to nerve the DB Spam and disable SC skill.

my points of view is :

- GX is a melee DD and have no chance to get through any good def at the moment. Not even Halucination Walk(magic) Helps because of that incredible spams.

- GX have skills like back slide and Dark Illusion where u can Jump or slide. Tell me the difference btw that skills and something like Front/Back Slide from mechanic. Same is for SC which can Jump towards u and can use Feint Bomb.
Also Suras can snap so why are all that skills valid in Woe but the GX skills not?

- Why is it possible that only one sura can tank nearly everything and can kill everything at the same time. i think some dmg modifiers in Woe should be Balanced as well.

- Same is with the Hell Plant Spam but for me its not so annoying than DB

I think maybe its too late to do some real good changes. I think gms had to do something a long time ago where people said what problems are with the classes. Every other game did fixes when the Community said that there are Problems with unbalanced Gameplay or whatever.

#3 MasterOfBytes

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 05:15 PM

You are waiting for feedback. And then? Doing nothing like in the https://forum.ragnar...-ranking-reset/ which you are ignoring for years?

#4 1Q88

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 05:29 PM

Voir le messageEctobi, le 26 October 2018 - 04:56 PM, dit :

Hello Gms,
I played WoE a long tima as an GX. The last years was pretty hard for GX cause there was no fun because of the DB Spam ,bug abuses, the updates like 175 and the siege set. For me it would be a good decission to nerve the DB Spam and disable SC skill.

my points of view is :

- GX is a melee DD and have no chance to get through any good def at the moment. Not even Halucination Walk(magic) Helps because of that incredible spams.

- GX have skills like back slide and Dark Illusion where u can Jump or slide. Tell me the difference btw that skills and something like Front/Back Slide from mechanic. Same is for SC which can Jump towards u and can use Feint Bomb.
Also Suras can snap so why are all that skills valid in Woe but the GX skills not?

- Why is it possible that only one sura can tank nearly everything and can kill everything at the same time. i think some dmg modifiers in Woe should be Balanced as well.

- Same is with the Hell Plant Spam but for me its not so annoying than DB

I think maybe its too late to do some real good changes. I think gms had to do something a long time ago where people said what problems are with the classes. Every other game did fixes when the Community said that there are Problems with unbalanced Gameplay or whatever.

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#5 Ranma ½

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 06:36 PM

- Lower the Dragon Breath Spam to a value that is possible to as human being would be good, but not destroy the whole skill.

- Faint Bomb abuse is really annoying but remove the whole skill would be a bit too much, maybe to change the GM Hide totally Invisible/Immortal State to Stealth could be an option so you could Cursed Circle someone who tries to abuse the skill and gives time to react.

- Also a big problem is the Hide Abuse in TE to pass a whole Defence with Tunnel Drive to use UC behind in a Invest. (Happened many times and got reported but these peoples do it still . . .) A solution would be to use the function of the Skill Hermode's Rod an Inverse it for Hide, Cloak and as well for Faint Bomb. The Function I'm talking about it you can only use the Skill next to a Warp Portal, if you inverse it to some skills you can't use it next to a warp portal and you're not able to do it through a warp portal. Could also be used for Earth Drive or Stasis that was used in the past through a warp portal, and it wouldn't destroy the skills it self for open field battle or after you passed the No Skill Song.

- Masquerades of a Shadow Chaser should also get slightly a Fail Delay, it's a bit strange to get Ignorance, Shield Weapon Strip and your Mount/Falcon is removed in less than one second by some players. (The best until now could do it in 3 frames of 30 Frames/sek Record . . .

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#6 Drunken.

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 06:48 PM

Its nice to hear that. Imo the biggest problems are:
-DB spam

-FeintBomb through warps (because after it u dont see them)

- Spam of holding notes from maestro(should also have a cooldown


that gx cant use backslide i never understood :)

Also the situation about potting. Its not possible to pot with TopTenpots or slims. because the heal ammount is even with tt whites just 4% and the dmg output in woe is too big.
WoE White potions are not gatherable in the mass theyre needed. Mastelas heal to less and u need the headgearslot for other things.

AND: A GM should be online during WoE to watch what happens. or at least reachable to pm if sth strange happens

#7 Festivus

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 06:56 PM

 RO_GM06, on 26 October 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

Hello,

There have been several reports recently about unbalanced skills or skill abuse.
The purpose of this topic will be to have feedback from the players to decide if modifications have to be done at some point for the War of Emperium.

First, as an aditionnal information to the maintenance patch note:

Dragon Breath is considered as a problem by the majority because of the high frequency spam that can be performed under special circumstances.
We are testing modifications that could be made on it, to reduce this frequency. Our goal is to make this modification as slight as possible, to be significant enough to avoid the spam, but to not disturb the regular RK players.



Then, the reported problem : Feint Bomb

Feint Bomb is supposed to be an exclusive evasion skill for Shadow Chaser, that grants a short duration of invisibility and invincibility.
However, several players have twisted the purpose of this skill by using it through warp to pass through all enemy's traps/defense.
To be clear, using Feint Bomb this way will lead to the account suspension of the player since it's considered as a bug abuse.

Still it doesn't remove the problem, so it's now a possibility to remove it completely from War Of Emperium maps.

I'm waiting for your feedback, from Woe players point of view.

If you want your argument/opinion to be taken into account, please stay courteous in this discussion.


Thank you in advance.

Dragon Breath:
The majority? Its funny to hear that. As we did reports on this, nothing happend, btw - still waiting for an final answer regarding our reports we did at the beginning of this year. But now, its quite funny, one guild does some reports - and you start to think about it? Dragon Breath issnt the problem - the player behind is it. As you said, its possible under special circumstances, so its possible to do it in a normal way.
The only problem is, that there are people using 3rd party tools or spriete hacks to bypass the delay to get "the perfect spam without any cainbreak". So instead of nerfing one single skill start to punish thoes players who using 3rd party tools - sprite modifications or whatever. Btw, a global delay will not change the guy behind it.
For me its just a punch into the face to all player who left this server because you never did somthing, and now you start to think about the game with around 200 woe players left? Really creepy in my view.


Feint Bomb:
We told you years ago about the problem with faintbomb - nothing happend - surprice now one gild did a report and you start to change your point of view? We lost invest agits because of this bugabuse and what did you do after reports from our side? Correct - nothing.. All what we got was "we cant open youtube links". The player wassnt even subspended for it and now all changed? Sounds like GM support for one Guild.
But this is nothing new on this server...

#8 Taka

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 07:54 PM

 RO_GM06, on 26 October 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

Hello,

There have been several reports recently about unbalanced skills or skill abuse.
The purpose of this topic will be to have feedback from the players to decide if modifications have to be done at some point for the War of Emperium.

First, as an aditionnal information to the maintenance patch note:

Dragon Breath is considered as a problem by the majority because of the high frequency spam that can be performed under special circumstances.
We are testing modifications that could be made on it, to reduce this frequency. Our goal is to make this modification as slight as possible, to be significant enough to avoid the spam, but to not disturb the regular RK players.



Then, the reported problem : Feint Bomb

Feint Bomb is supposed to be an exclusive evasion skill for Shadow Chaser, that grants a short duration of invisibility and invincibility.
However, several players have twisted the purpose of this skill by using it through warp to pass through all enemy's traps/defense.
To be clear, using Feint Bomb this way will lead to the account suspension of the player since it's considered as a bug abuse.

Still it doesn't remove the problem, so it's now a possibility to remove it completely from War Of Emperium maps.

I'm waiting for your feedback, from Woe players point of view.

If you want your argument/opinion to be taken into account, please stay courteous in this discussion.


Thank you in advance.
- Change for DB will be an official change from korea or you'r going to change that by yourself? And this "high frequency spam that can be performed under special circumstances" is a bug or 3rd party program/grfs/other?

#9 Festivus

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 08:08 PM

 Taka, on 26 October 2018 - 07:54 PM, said:

- Change for DB will be an official change from korea or you'r going to change that by yourself? And this "high frequency spam that can be performed under special circumstances" is a bug or 3rd party program/grfs/other?
its not a bug. But there are people who use 3rd party tools or sprite hacks to get into this level of spaming,

#10 Taka

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 08:29 PM

View PostFestivus, on 26 October 2018 - 08:08 PM, said:

its not a bug. But there are people who use 3rd party tools or sprite hacks to get into this level of spaming,
- Well, so it's going to be an unnoficial change? Because some people are using 3rd party programs? Then i'v got another idea - close the servers because some people are using bots... GM's here always say that they can't do anything that doesn't come from korea and now they'r planning to change a skill that is working properly only becuse some pepople are using 3d party programs? Is that a joke? We'r waiting years for updates to get here - dunno know why cus it's the same game, same engine, code etc. - private servers got evrything but not na official one - why is that? And for cherry on top we'r going to have unnoficial change for properly working skill? Where is logic?

#11 Ranma ½

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 10:20 PM

@Taka

I guess you misunderstood one thing, even if it is possible to get with some special circumstances stats into the spam chaining there is a limit of spaming for a human being. As faster your cast time is as harder it will be to proper chain the casts. But if you remove the animation out of your client and use other stuff you can chain for 2h the whole siege even with instant cast and it is like a Gatling Gun. No one could hit the right time frame without one mismatch for 2 hour and never break the chain flow, not even once. These two kind of spaming you can never compare to each other.

The issue is that many peoples left because of that situation, those who used it still use it and doesn't change their behavior and the GM's can't really proof it. They could ban them and offer these peoples a travel to France to proof on a fresh installed Ragnarok the possibility of what they did. I guess no one would take the travel if it was done with some modifications and tools.

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#12 Artorias

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 02:40 AM

@GM_06: what are you allowed to do? Are you allowed to change dmg formulars or add cooldown on certain spells? Are you allowed to enable Backslide in War of Emperium? I guess we need that kind of information to give you some suggestions.

#13 Spoocy

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 06:59 AM

+1 for Faint Bomb change to ChaseWalk Hide (not normal hide)
+1 for 0,2sec fix cooldown on DB / Hell Plant

+10 for a ~0,5 fix cooldown on fail mask

But let the ppl test if 0,2 to high or to low. Don’t say it is fix, maybe you must change it again !

#14 Ridly

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 11:53 AM

 Ranma ½, on 26 October 2018 - 10:20 PM, said:

They could ban them and offer these peoples a travel to France to proof on a fresh installed Ragnarok the possibility of what they did. I guess no one would take the travel if it was done with some modifications and tools.

so you're saying someone is guilty of an accusation if they dont travel 500~2000km to a different country to demonstrate something for 1~2min, what about the planing.... aren't we missing some extra steps here to be realistic? what about vacation time from work/school/university? where do they sleep,eat etc? who'll pay for the expenses and missed income?
if you can come up with a solid plan, sure let's do it your way

about the skills
DB spam requires alot of optimization to frequently spam it and i haven't seen anyone so far who could do it without chain breaks
the GM hide from feint bomb was overpowered to begin with if you ask me, too much room for abuse of all kinds also No Masq delay upon fail seems also broken, even full strip has a delay but also a lower success chance
and dont get me started with hell plant .... i've seen ppl spam more than 10 HPs within a second when the usual max aspd for hell planters is at 189 due to Eira's overed boost, which should result in only 4~5 HPs/sec

#15 Taka

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 01:04 PM

 Ranma ½, on 26 October 2018 - 10:20 PM, said:

@Taka

I guess you misunderstood one thing, even if it is possible to get with some special circumstances stats into the spam chaining there is a limit of spaming for a human being. As faster your cast time is as harder it will be to proper chain the casts. But if you remove the animation out of your client and use other stuff you can chain for 2h the whole siege even with instant cast and it is like a Gatling Gun. No one could hit the right time frame without one mismatch for 2 hour and never break the chain flow, not even once. These two kind of spaming you can never compare to each other.

The issue is that many peoples left because of that situation, those who used it still use it and doesn't change their behavior and the GM's can't really proof it. They could ban them and offer these peoples a travel to France to proof on a fresh installed Ragnarok the possibility of what they did. I guess no one would take the travel if it was done with some modifications and tools.
- I didn't misunderstood anything. Normal player's again got kick in the ass like earlier with rates because of bots. GM's should just catch players that are removing animation delay (dunno - be on WoE and record them and then analyze the video ?). You'r saying that a lot of people left server because of that. And where they went? This skill work like that everywhere right?

#16 Lyrala

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 01:12 PM

With any cooldown on dragon breath you will trigger motion delay after every cast because its not chainable anymore means even 0.1 or 0.2 second cooldown will be alot longer since motion delay is more than that i believe. Not sure about the exact number.

#17 fhE790rP

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 06:02 PM

why not talking about the other skills, which are bug for years such as shield spell 3 ?

#18 iPhy

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 06:18 PM

 fhE790rP, on 27 October 2018 - 06:02 PM, said:

why not talking about the other skills, which are bug for years such as shield spell 3 ?
What about TKM's miracle ? /hmm
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#19 Ranma ½

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 06:22 PM

@Taka
Left doesn't mean they moved to another server, you can also quit a game. Some will come again after years but some leave for ever q_q

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#20 Strifing_Crow

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 09:48 PM

Please Add cooldown for Shadow Chaser Masquerades even if they fail,
Dragon Breath delay to 0,2 secs like on iro, do the same for hell plant.

its sad that changes to the game have to be done, just because some players insist on going on using tools or programms or other illegal modifiers to get epic powers to disable a whole guild alone or to endure a whole guilds attack because of an amazing autopot.
people like that ruin this game, but i guess they just laugh about us every time and are soo fkin happy that they can beat you through cheating....

would be cool if you find a way to totally block third party tools from accessing the game like makros or potting programs or tools who sends massive information bulks to the server, but i have no suggestion how that should work :(

i guess some delays to the most problematic skills could be an option (masq spam/DB Spam/Hell Plant Spam)[Autopott???]
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