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Discussion about skills


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#41 Lyrala

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 03:54 PM

Or at least bring db dmg up with the op headgears that iro has to compensate.

#42 Teatime

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 04:04 PM

First of all, I'm positively surprised that the GM's actually did something and not only asking meaningless questions like "Should we do Alchemist rank resets?" That's the main reason why I haven't said anything so far.

The problem now is, that for PvM it's an even bigger nerf than for WoE. In woe you can alternate between those 2 Breathes while in PvP, there are many cases where only 1 Breath makes sense to use. So in PvM you're spamming DB even twice as slow as in WoE.

We need to think of another solution.

#43 Egy

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 04:22 PM

isn't 0.5 too much?
wouldn't be better to tune it? like 0.1-0.12

#44 Zantetsuken

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 04:30 PM

There are 39 skills with rk class, without talking about runes ... and you only use dragon breath ... interesting /heh
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#45 Ridly

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 05:54 PM

View PostZantetsuken, on 22 November 2018 - 04:30 PM, said:

There are 39 skills with rk class, without talking about runes ... and you only use dragon breath ... interesting /heh
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how many of these are actual active skills, how many of them are buffs and how many deal dmg?
and while you're at the runes topic, storm blast rune was nerfed into the ground, crushing strike has a 30sec cool down....go on...what other runes were you talking about?

#46 Wizzzzard

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 06:48 PM

View PostZantetsuken, on 22 November 2018 - 04:30 PM, said:

There are 39 skills with rk class, without talking about runes ... and you only use dragon breath ... interesting /heh
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Wow, I don't know if I should facepalm or cry after reading this comment... Do you have any idea how DB or a DB build works?!
That's like saying Rangers have 24 skills and they only use Arrow Storm and No Limits... Mechanics 31 skills, Front Slide and Suicide... Sura 24 skills, GoH and Tiger Cannon...
They can only use DB because they sacrifice on stats necessary for the other skills like especially on str...

Back to topic though...
I really like the idea of not nerving the DB in PvM, but I believe that might be really tricky to do for the GMs on their own (and we all know how long Korea takes to get stuff done...)
One thing that is possible for the GMs would be to add an effect to a headgear!
Wasn't there once a project to get the 3rd class head gears, was there a Rune Knight headgear? If so, how about adding the effect -0.1sec DB delay every 3 upgrades in PvE areas and -0.1 sec every 5 upgrades in PvP/WoE areas

#47 Festivus

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 08:44 PM

View PostWizzzzard, on 22 November 2018 - 06:48 PM, said:

Wow, I don't know if I should facepalm or cry after reading this comment... Do you have any idea how DB or a DB build works?!
That's like saying Rangers have 24 skills and they only use Arrow Storm and No Limits... Mechanics 31 skills, Front Slide and Suicide... Sura 24 skills, GoH and Tiger Cannon...
They can only use DB because they sacrifice on stats necessary for the other skills like especially on str...

Back to topic though...
I really like the idea of not nerving the DB in PvM, but I believe that might be really tricky to do for the GMs on their own (and we all know how long Korea takes to get stuff done...)
One thing that is possible for the GMs would be to add an effect to a headgear!
Wasn't there once a project to get the 3rd class head gears, was there a Rune Knight headgear? If so, how about adding the effect -0.1sec DB delay every 3 upgrades in PvE areas and -0.1 sec every 5 upgrades in PvP/WoE areas

The only thing I can add here is #P2W

#48 Zantetsuken

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Posted 23 November 2018 - 02:10 AM

View PostWizzzzard, on 22 November 2018 - 06:48 PM, said:

Wow, I don't know if I should facepalm or cry after reading this comment... Do you have any idea how DB or a DB build works?!
That's like saying Rangers have 24 skills and they only use Arrow Storm and No Limits... Mechanics 31 skills, Front Slide and Suicide... Sura 24 skills, GoH and Tiger Cannon...
They can only use DB because they sacrifice on stats necessary for the other skills like especially on str...


I don't know if i should facepalm or cry but all the examples that you show me,are the subjects of my complaint to the players.

You only use suicidal in mechanic ? really ? Mechanic can be played in many ways, support or dps ! I prefers someone who use knuckle boost level 1,neutral barrier, lava flow or Pile Bunker than a full specialized character who can only use suicidal destruction. Theses skills may be weaker but they are a hundred times more useful !

Ranger arrow storm ? and hybrid aspd arrow storm ? or trap arrow storm ? This class has huge potential and i don't see anyone using trap !

Rune knight dragon breath ? Rune knight hybrid dragon breath/ hundred spears ? Rune knight Ignition break / crushing strike ? Rune Knight ASPD Crushing strike ? Rune Knight aspd autocast ? When i see a rune knight who doesn't use death bound against guillotine cross ? When i see a rune knight frozen or stone curse ?
I'm sorry, i have no respect for your way to play !

Play your character as you want ! There is no solution for everything but if you use only one skill, you will be disappointed.
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#49 Egy

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Posted 23 November 2018 - 09:04 AM

View PostZantetsuken, on 23 November 2018 - 02:10 AM, said:

I don't know if i should facepalm or cry but all the examples that you show me,are the subjects of my complaint to the players.

You only use suicidal in mechanic ? really ? Mechanic can be played in many ways, support or dps ! I prefers someone who use knuckle boost level 1,neutral barrier, lava flow or Pile Bunker than a full specialized character who can only use suicidal destruction. Theses skills may be weaker but they are a hundred times more useful !

Ranger arrow storm ? and hybrid aspd arrow storm ? or trap arrow storm ? This class has huge potential and i don't see anyone using trap !

Rune knight dragon breath ? Rune knight hybrid dragon breath/ hundred spears ? Rune knight Ignition break / crushing strike ? Rune Knight ASPD Crushing strike ? Rune Knight aspd autocast ? When i see a rune knight who doesn't use death bound against guillotine cross ? When i see a rune knight frozen or stone curse ?
I'm sorry, i have no respect for your way to play !

Play your character as you want ! There is no solution for everything but if you use only one skill, you will be disappointed.


ok, then let's start to nerf all the classes and let's make all hybrids...

bah...

#50 Fuzzy.

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Posted 23 November 2018 - 09:37 AM

View PostEgy, on 23 November 2018 - 09:04 AM, said:

ok, then let's start to nerf all the classes and let's make all hybrids...

bah...
And totally get REKT in pvm when later kRO updates hit the server that require people to be really strong /heh
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#51 SSJ4_Gogeta / Krilin21

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Posted 23 November 2018 - 04:54 PM

Voir le messageZantetsuken, le 23 November 2018 - 02:10 AM, dit :

I don't know if i should facepalm or cry but all the examples that you show me,are the subjects of my complaint to the players.

You only use suicidal in mechanic ? really ? Mechanic can be played in many ways, support or dps ! I prefers someone who use knuckle boost level 1,neutral barrier, lava flow or Pile Bunker than a full specialized character who can only use suicidal destruction. Theses skills may be weaker but they are a hundred times more useful !

Ranger arrow storm ? and hybrid aspd arrow storm ? or trap arrow storm ? This class has huge potential and i don't see anyone using trap !

Rune knight dragon breath ? Rune knight hybrid dragon breath/ hundred spears ? Rune knight Ignition break / crushing strike ? Rune Knight ASPD Crushing strike ? Rune Knight aspd autocast ? When i see a rune knight who doesn't use death bound against guillotine cross ? When i see a rune knight frozen or stone curse ?
I'm sorry, i have no respect for your way to play !

Play your character as you want ! There is no solution for everything but if you use only one skill, you will be disappointed.


hundret spear and ignition breake is nerfed and make no damage so its useless since nerf.

#52 Ranma ½

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Posted 24 November 2018 - 12:21 PM

@Zantezuken
Traps and a Falcon during WoE is the best, maybe others didn't figured out yet.

@Topic
Didn't tested yet, but it should also stay outside of WoE. Maybe you never met an abusing RK at MvPs or Bossnia. . . .

But even without testing I would also say it should be only around 0.2, maybe 0.3 if it is possible to do it faster with switching of Fire Water Breath.

I hope some peoples think twice about the use of illegal tools / hacks after the GMs take it more serious, but some kiddies always must search gor the next thing they can abuse . . .

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#53 Teatime

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 03:35 PM

View PostRO_GM06, on 26 October 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

Dragon Breath is considered as a problem by the majority because of the high frequency spam that can be performed under special circumstances.
We are testing modifications that could be made on it, to reduce this frequency. Our goal is to make this modification as slight as possible, to be significant enough to avoid the spam, but to not disturb the regular RK players.

"Our goal is to make this modification as slight as possible, ..., but to not disturb the regular RK players."

Ok, 0.5 seconds is -by far- too much. Let's not call it "spam" what we want to avoid, let's call it "chaining". It should still be possible to spam this skill with Bragi effect but there should be a cast animation between the breaths. This means: no cooldown (like it was before), no castdelay (cause of 150 Int bragi), just animationdelay. The chaining is a technique, where you can spam DB alot faster when a little castbar is left than with complete instant cast. With Instantcast, you still have to wait the animation that every skill causes. But with a very little casttime left and the right timing, it was possible to spam DB -alot- faster with a castbar (because of skipping the animation) than without a castbar. This fact, that it requires perfect timing could be easily abused by makros.

After several tests and observations ingame, I've come to the following result:
The faster the animation of a skill is, the easier chainable the skill is. Cart Cannon has a relatively long animation, therefore it is extremely hard to chain it, even with high aspd. Dragon Breath has a faster animation, so it's alot easier to chain. Skills like Hellgate with one of the shortest animation are ridiculously easy to chain (up to 3 times cause of shperes). The slower the skillanimation is, the more aspd and the better timing you need to chain it.

Cart Cannon: slow animation: ~193 aspd and perfect timing required
Dragon Breath: faster animation: ~188+ aspd and very good timing required
Hellgate: very fast animation: ~180+ aspd and little timing required

So, what can be done to prevent chaining without disturbing casual and pvm Rune Knight players, is to change the animation of the skill Dragon Breath. I don't know, maybe there is a Swordman, Knight, Lord Knight or Rune Knight skill that uses another animation than Dragon Breath that can be used to replace the current animation of the skill. Then we can remove the 0.5 seconds Cooldown again because chaining will no longer be possible.


View PostRO_GM06, on 26 October 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

Then, the reported problem : Feint Bomb

Feint Bomb is supposed to be an exclusive evasion skill for Shadow Chaser, that grants a short duration of invisibility and invincibility.
However, several players have twisted the purpose of this skill by using it through warp to pass through all enemy's traps/defense.
To be clear, using Feint Bomb this way will lead to the account suspension of the player since it's considered as a bug abuse.

Still it doesn't remove the problem, so it's now a possibility to remove it completely from War Of Emperium maps.

I'm waiting for your feedback, from Woe players point of view.

Disabling Feint Bomb is a tough step. I think this is the right time to enable Backslide in woe. Shadow Chasers can use this as an alternative and not abuseable escape spell while Guillotine Crosses get their long deserved mobility spell.



View PostRO_GM06, on 26 October 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

If you want your argument/opinion to be taken into account, please stay courteous in this discussion.

Thank you in advance.

I have to thank you.

For doing stuff :)

#54 Escalate

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 04:07 PM

ok, i arnt one of the top rk.s in woe and talking about the server i would be happy when im under the top50%.
but for me it is still ok so. i can still mob for partys. i can solo specific mvps.
and with bragi its still ok to spam.

i think so its more important to have more "active" players when you want to do something like et or so on (when you dont have mass 2 exen).
at this point we are now i think people have to think about to play again more in team instead of doing all solo (not that this isnt allowed or so)
but to play together is more ok for an mmorpg then to play whole time solo.
else you can play offline games
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#55 SSJ4_Gogeta / Krilin21

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 04:17 PM

dragonbreath is crap in team too, you cant do good demongod or other high hp mvps anymore.

#56 Escalate

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 04:40 PM

and thats what i mean. you have to play more in team now.
and thats for me then an "massive multiplayer" online game.
else i can play offline ^^

"offotpic"
i know we have less player then any other server.
but why is that so?
one reason is, in my eyes as example, the "op" chars/skills.

in the "old" days you needed a party to kill "middle" mvp.s like darklord and so on.
but how older the game was, you needed less and less people because equip went so good / mvp cards where droped (thx bossnia) and so on.
when i see now that my "low" rk can solo darklord without pots where you needed in the old days a party (6+ people) its no wonder that no new players come.
because they wont reach the "dmg" to rudimentally keep pace up to the old players.
as example.

when i "restarted" for a few month i would be happy when i see an mvp somewhere (didnt thought i can kill them)
now i can kill a few mvp.s but its pretty hard in 2 ways. first my eq is to low for specific mvp.s and second i can be happy when there arnt 5+ people with "full" equip there who are using convex mirror and 4 exen just to hunt them down.
this game is an MMORPG not an SPORPG guys. keep that in your mind.
with the skill nerv (maybe soner or later more who knows) its an beginning to make maybe partys (even if there are small) back into the game.
i think so how it is now it is better
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#57 SSJ4_Gogeta / Krilin21

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 05:24 PM

thats totally crap.. what brings a team when you are useless IN a team with this char

#58 Ridly

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 05:33 PM

View PostTeatime, on 28 November 2018 - 03:35 PM, said:

So, what can be done to prevent chaining without disturbing casual and pvm Rune Knight players, is to change the animation of the skill Dragon Breath. I don't know, maybe there is a Swordman, Knight, Lord Knight or Rune Knight skill that uses another animation than Dragon Breath that can be used to replace the current animation of the skill. Then we can remove the 0.5 seconds Cooldown again because chaining will no longer be possible.

Disabling Feint Bomb is a tough step. I think this is the right time to enable Backslide in woe. Shadow Chasers can use this as an alternative and not abuseable escape spell while Guillotine Crosses get their long deserved mobility spell.
so you're saying GMs should modify the grf further by messing with RK sprites and giving skills other sprites than what they should have? sounds reasonable
almost as reasonable as some cheaters removing sprites entirely... no seriously... let's not do this. we dont want to open the box of pandora here...
iRo did for once something reasonable, they didnt implement a forced animation like we have here on DB/Cart Cannon when you reach insta cast, however they added a 0.2 cooldown which would hardcap DB to up to 5x/sec

i'd say we remove snap from sura and emergancy escape and flying kick from shadow chaser and front/back slide from mecha in woe so GX doesnt have the short stick of the movement skills anymore
or if we are to allow feint bomb back into woe, strip it of the 3sec GM hide, that part was the main problem from the beginning

#59 Teatime

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Posted 28 November 2018 - 11:45 PM

View PostRidly, on 28 November 2018 - 05:33 PM, said:

they didnt implement a forced animation like we have here on DB/Cart Cannon when you reach insta cast

The animation should be "forced" no matter if you have instantcast or not. Dragon Breath is only chainable because the animation can be skipped with a little castbar left...

Forced animation should prevent skipping at all

#60 Ridly

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 12:13 AM

then all spamable skills need a forced animation....all skills that can be spammed, can be abused so all need a forced animation, from dragon breath to hell gate, to rolling cutter, hell plant, soul expansion, snap, back slide, lex aeterna, high heal, KE, song of despair and so on....literally every skill that can be spammed according to your logic, since aspd is just for autohits and there is no aspd based delay, kiel card is pointless and so on...





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